In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Rebecca Hayden. Rebecca is a hypnosis practitioner specializing in personal growth, self-discovery, and healing. She is the host of Ayahuasca Talks Podcast, where she explores the transformative power of Ayahuasca and other plant medicines, emphasizing self-love, authenticity, and integration.
We touch upon topics such as:
Rebecca’s journey from documentary filmmaking to shamanism and energy healing (00:47-03:00)
Her first encounters with plant medicines like Iboga and Ayahuasca (03:00-12:12)
How Rebecca used supplements to transition off antidepressants and empower herself (05:13-09:03)
The role of hypnosis in deepening integration and re-experiencing Ayahuasca’s lessons (17:28-20:55)
Integration lessons, including learning self-love and breaking unhealthy patterns (24:38-32:37)
Insights into Ayahuasca’s non-linear lessons and group healing dynamics (42:30-48:47)
Key elements for creating a meaningful documentary on Ayahuasca (52:25-56:27).
If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.
Find more about Rebecca Hayden at http://www.rebeccahayden.com or connect via her podcast, Ayahuasca Talks.
Transcript
Sam Believ (00:03)
Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we do the whole assembly of today. I’m going to have a conversation with Rebecca Hayden. Rebecca is a hypnosis practitioner, specializing in personal growth, self-discovery and healing. She’s the host of the Ayahuasca talks podcast where she and her guests share experiences and insights related to Ayahuasca and other plant medicines. Through her podcast and writings, Hayden explores the therapeutic benefits of Ayahuasca, focusing on its role.
in healing emotional wounds and fostering personal transformation. She emphasizes the importance of self-love and authenticity. Rebecca, welcome to the show.
Rebecca Hayden (00:44)
Thank you. Thanks for inviting me.
Sam Believ (00:47)
Rebecca, can you tell us a little bit about your story and what brought you to work with Iowa Sky?
Rebecca Hayden (00:56)
Just before I entered the world of alternative healing entirely, was working on documentaries. And I did a lot of research for a particular documentary that I never ended up making. It just got so dark and depressing. And that was a tendency for me in my life anyway. So it just got kind of worse.
I mean, there were some good things that came out of it. Things started to make sense to me, the way that I viewed the world and why.
So that was helpful, but all the rest of it was kind of really hard for me to take. And my purpose in going into that work was to help the world. And I think that in the end, even though I thought I was doing a good job of that, I realized that not only was it not really helping, it was harming me. And my son was really young at the time.
You know, one day I realized I just had to walk away and heal. And so then I started with energy healing and then I wanted to understand. I was in research mode, you know, because I was a researcher and documentary filmmaker. So when these magical things started happening with energy healing, I thought, what is this? Where does it come from? Who started this? So I went into the whole history of that and I discovered shamanism.
as a result, which was the root of energy healing. then I pursued that and then came plant medicines. And my first medicine was iboga actually in 2014. That’s after I started to work with shamanism and journeying and all kinds of magical things were starting to happen already. And then iboga was a big experience. And then I was ready for ayahuasca.
Sam Believ (03:00)
Interesting, you mentioned documentary this year that’s actually the next retreat, which starts next Monday, we’re gonna start filming a sizzle reel or a trailer for a documentary about ayahuasca. So it’s very timely. So I think we can talk about it later, but I’ve heard that when you were dealing with extreme depression,
Rebecca Hayden (03:21)
Mm-hmm.
Sam Believ (03:29)
and that you just ask the universe for help. Can you talk to us about that story?
Rebecca Hayden (03:35)
Yeah, that was so odd. I mean, not so odd now because I’ve had much more odd experiences than that. But at the time, this was completely outside of anything I had experienced. was researching, you know, another topic entirely, like having to do with deep politics and nothing to do with, with anything beyond, you know, what’s seemingly called the rational world. And
there was a discussion on one of the one of the websites that I was delving into about, you know, attacks of some kind and surreal stuff, stuff that actually delved into the political end of ETs and things like this. So there’s they’re already getting into this, you know, content that was beyond, you know, anything that I delved into before. But
with it came a lot of familiar stuff from the political world, you know.
those people who don’t want others to discover certain things. So anyway, there was this whole discussion about someone reaching out into the universe and I thought, and at that time I was really suffering and there was no help that I hadn’t already gone for, you know, in the conventional world of medicine that didn’t work out at all. So one night I was looking at my son and I did, reached out into the universe and just said, hey, you know, I need help and
And really shortly after that, I discovered a documentary that helped me get off my meds, because at the time I was on depression medication and I didn’t want to be. It wasn’t working, hadn’t been for years, but getting off of it was difficult. And a lot of people attest to that and even tapering didn’t work. So.
And this documentary was not about that necessarily. It did talk about some supplements for depression. But by the end of watching it, I knew exactly what I needed to do. And I put together a protocol for myself. And I actually did it literally overnight. And I don’t recommend that to anybody because it was a pretty miraculous thing. I had no side effects. This is unheard of, really. And again, I do not recommend people do that. Go to a naturopath. So ultimately, down the road,
but
I did go to a naturopath for another matter. And she asked me, I told her this story. She asked me what was my protocol for getting off of the depression medication. And when I gave her the list and how much I was taking, she said, that’s exactly what I would have recommended for somebody. So it was very interesting.
Sam Believ (06:23)
Yeah, when you start delving into this world, synchronicity start happening and things start falling in place. I know you don’t recommend it and not as a medical advice, but what are the supplements that are good for depressed people?
Rebecca Hayden (06:43)
You know, it was so long ago, people always ask me that when I tell this story and I don’t even remember what I was taking. I think it was like a lot of niacin, which is a B vitamin, I think B3, but, and omegas, like a lot of omegas and other things I can’t even remember. D3, I think. There were a lot of them and high dosages too, so.
I would really do your own research and find a natural path that can help with this too. Because I know this is a big issue with ayahuasca as well. I talk to people and I let them know they have to get off of them before they go to a retreat. And it’s a big matter. It’s not easy. It was very, very difficult for me.
Sam Believ (07:27)
Yeah, it’s a bit of a catch-22 when people who need ayahuasca the most, they tend to be on antidepressants and obviously it does not combine well with ayahuasca. So before they can even come, they go through, you know, a gruesome period of weaning off and everything becomes even more difficult. Obviously ayahuasca helps them afterwards, but that period, it’s a very big roadblock for many people.
Rebecca Hayden (07:55)
It is,
yeah. But you know, things coming up pre-ceremony is not an unusual thing either, right? So, but you’re right. It feels like a rite of passage thing where you have to prove that you’re, you know, ready and…
Sam Believ (08:03)
Mm-hmm.
Rebecca Hayden (08:12)
Yeah, it’s challenging, but I think it can be done. do. I mean, I know I did it myself, but I think it can be done in a more reasonable manner too. So that’s something that is worth looking into to get a naturopath on board and get a protocol. I can even dig mine up, I think maybe, or some reasonable.
facsimile thereof for you to pursue if you want to help people who are thinking of coming to the retreat center.
Sam Believ (08:43)
Yeah, getting off into the presence is like a test by the universe is like how badly they really want that healing. so you use supplements, your depression got better. And how much from then till till you actually working with ayahuasca?
Rebecca Hayden (09:03)
that was before I started energy healing and my depression didn’t get better right away. It was just a feeling of empowerment that I could actually get off this medicine by myself. And, and I just started to feel like, there’s more going on here. You know, like, I asked for this help and suddenly I’m starting to get this stuff without, you know, knowing where that was coming from. So.
that was a good beginning but no it was a long long road then then i just discovered this energy healing guy very mysterious stuff like he there was this long ad in in a natural magazine that i had subscribed to and
and like no website that I was aware of at the time or anything like that. And I contacted him and he just sent these like energy waves to me and my body started moving in all these ways that were not dictated by the brain. It’s not like I’m gonna lift my arm up now. It’s like my arm would lift up and move in these strange ways. And I’d go, wow, that’s interesting. I was the observer, you know?
And I walked away from that going, how’s that possible? Like what’s going on there? And that’s when I took that deep dive into energy healing. And then I started pursuing shamanism, started journeying. And then things just started to happen spontaneously. Like I’d get downloads and at night.
lots of messages and had to start to work with my dreams. And then, so one night I asked about iboga. I discovered iboga because I was pursuing the shamanism thing going, what’s this all about? And people started talking about medicines because I wasn’t working with medicines at the time.
And then I heard it was really good for depression. So I thought, okay. And then one night I asked, is this for me? You know, cause I had already started to establish this back and forth and you know, I knew I was receiving guidance. just before I fell asleep that night, I got this big powerful.
vision. My eyes were closed, but I wasn’t quite asleep yet. I was in a theta state now, I realized, because now that I do hypnosis, I realized what that state is. And that’s what we do when we go into hypnosis. So I was in a journeying state. And I got these like, this explosion of color and psychedelia, like psychedelic kind of art moving though in motion. It was like a little movie. And to me, that was a big yes. Yeah. This medicine’s for you. And I, my
question was two part, is he bogus for me and when will I do it? Because this was like the dead of winter and I saw grass like then then my vision zeroed in on brand new bright green grass.
And I did not like that answer at all because it was like, I don’t know, January and I was really suffering. And I decided to misinterpret it. I was like, yeah, there’s like lots of grass where you’ll be going, you know, because we go to warm countries to do these medicines. So I went and researched and found a place and.
Everything kept falling apart every time I tried to plan this trip, like spectacularly fall apart, you know, to the point where they wouldn’t even talk to me after a while, because every time I said, yeah, it’s happening, then it wouldn’t. And then,
And then I found this other place suddenly that was like far more appealing to me and just, you know, how your body just says yes. And so I went, okay, maybe I should pursue this. And when that happened, the weather suddenly turned and got warmer and literally overnight, you know, the snow melted. was green grass and visible the next day the money came through and everything fell into place. And I went and did he Boga. So.
And ayahuasca didn’t show up for me until like the next year. So that was 2014. And then I went pursuing it and I found iboga or no, I found peyote instead. So I had that journey. And then in January of the next year of 2015, everything came together and like this place was booked up months in advance, but they said, you know,
apply anyway and sometimes things happen and something happened and I was like there within a month and yeah it was an amazing experience.
Sam Believ (13:33)
Interesting but obviously your podcast is called Ayahuasca Talks not Iboga Talks or Peyote Talks. What was so special about Ayahuasca that you dedicated your time to creating the podcast and interviewing people about it?
Rebecca Hayden (13:41)
Yes, I know.
Because once, because ayahuasca is my medicine and I discovered this because I was having all of these experiences, but once I agreed to do ayahuasca, it was apparent she was working with me in advance. And then when I was in the medicine, there was just tons of dialogue, whether I was in the medicine or not.
And a strong indication you’ll be working with us. And I’m like, well, what does that mean? And I got a little sort of scared. And I said, look, I’m new at this. I didn’t know what it meant. And this voice said, don’t worry. We’ll stay with you. So after I went home to Toronto,
This voice just stayed with me. There’s a story behind that too. Like when I went to do peyote, there was in ceremony, there’s a tradition where you offer a gift. So you’re supposed to give a gift. And I had in mind immediately, as soon as the facilitator said, have to give a gift, I knew exactly what it was. This little jade pendulum that I never felt comfortable with is supposed to give you a yes and a no. It’s supposed to be a communicator spiritually, right?
but it just, wasn’t for me and I knew it. I loved it, but I didn’t use it for that purpose. And I thought I had it in my backpack with me on that trip. So he said, you have to give a gift. Immediately this came to mind and I trusted that.
And I went and searched, I almost tore this backpack apart looking for it, wasn’t there. And I said, I know what I have to give. And he said, okay, it doesn’t matter. Go to the town, pick something nice, something like peyote jewelry, all the artisans, you know, which old people make them. And I said, that’s beautiful, that’s exactly what I’ll do. So I picked this neck or this bracelet. And it was exactly as he described it.
Anyway, we went up the mountain to do the ceremony and by the time I got there, again, it was not there, you know, and these tricks were happening, these strange things. And it’s because I knew what I needed to offer and I knew that I needed to put that jade stone in the ground. So anyway, the facilitator said, I’ll offer this on your behalf. And I thought, fine, you go ahead. But I know what I have to do.
Anyway, when I got back home, it was winter and there’s no way I could put anything in that ground. But in the spring when everything came through for ayahuasca and they said, don’t worry, we’ll stay with you during this, you know, this dialogue in my journey, I came home and by that time it was spring and I put that jade stone in the ground and boom, all day dialogue. So.
Ayahuasca was talking lots every day.
Sam Believ (16:56)
Sorry, I don’t understand. What happened after you put Jade into the ground?
Rebecca Hayden (17:00)
then the dialogue kicked in, like all day long. Yeah, so I was having the kind of dialogue that you do in medicine journeys in my everyday life, and it was just ongoing.
Sam Believ (17:14)
Sorry, we have lots of people that come to the retreat and then they want to get rid of some jewelry, throw it in the river, rings and stuff like that. That seems to be a pattern. And when did you start working with hypnosis? Was it before or after?
Rebecca Hayden (17:23)
interesting.
Yeah.
It was after because I was really compelled to tell my story and I did and I shared a lot of the things that I was being taught, you know, because this was a big part of that experience was, okay, we’re teaching you all this stuff and we want you to share this stuff with others. So I started doing that. I mean, I started a website and a blog and
and started speaking engagements that really terrified me at the time too. So it was a whole part of my integration, I guess too. And then people would ask me, well, you have all this guidance, isn’t that great? How can I do that? How can I get that going on? And I thought, well, good question because it’s not like we all know what’s going to happen with ayahuasca. We don’t. I couldn’t have predicted
this
was gonna happen to me. And it wasn’t easy either, you know, like during depression, I was very isolated because that happens sometimes to people who are depressed. They don’t wanna go out, they don’t wanna engage with the world. And then when I had all this dialogue going on all the time, I had to do the same thing because I had to kind of get a handle on it and try to learn to.
live a life when this was going on. And I had tons of questions. So there’s just this communing going on like all day and all night. So anyway, when people ask me about how can I connect in that way, I thought maybe this is what I need to do is to find a way to help people to do that, you know, in a way that’s less intense, perhaps. But
Just like with the medicine, we have to trust that it unfolds for everybody the way it’s meant to. Anyway, there was this guy that I came across who was doing these shows, and I’m not a big fan of that whole version of hypnosis, but at the time I was just so open and so curious, and I really wanted to understand the application of hypnosis as it pertained to helping people re-experience.
anything, you know, especially his thing was, hey, you know, you can re-experience a drug experience without, you know, having to do the drug. And of course, this was not something I was, you know, a big fan of. But I thought if you can do that, why can’t you re-experience ayahuasca or something else in a state that’s not as, you know, that’s more manageable, that you can do on a regular basis, you know, and
and reconnect and help with integration, help us live the lives that we need to live when we come back from this magical experience, right?
So ultimately that’s what I did. We had a few nights that we put together where we helped people re-experience their ayahuasca journeys. So that was interesting. And I do help people do that too when they come away going, I’m not really sure what the message there was, or I want to go back to explore something else, or, and so I can help people do that now. And, and the guidance thing too. So in those states, we can make those kinds of connections.
and that’s why I got into hypnosis because ultimately that’s what I wanted to help people do and do a lot of other things that happen in the medicine and yeah that sort of thing so it’s pretty amazing tool.
Sam Believ (21:11)
It sounds very cool and also very scary. What are the similarities or differences, main differences between the ayahuasca trance states and the hypnosis states?
Rebecca Hayden (21:14)
you
The difference is that, first of all, when people go into hypnosis, most people don’t even realize they’re under. You know what I mean? They know what’s going on. And the trick is to not. The trick is to focus more deeply within and not pay attention to the external stuff, right? But they do know, and people feel safer that way. And so…
they start to realize that they have control over this to some degree and that when they allow themselves to to let go it’s an intentional thing and it’s something that they can navigate intentionally so that’s a difference there’s a lot of similarities but the intensity isn’t there as much you know so people will get you know
more than visions, it’s a full on journey. So animals will show up. You know, when I intentionally go in and help them make spiritual connection, they’ll get the dialogue and the guidance and the weirdness sometimes, you know, this figure showed up and here’s what it looked like. And what does that mean? And I try to help people just focus on the things that have to do with
with helping them in their lives. It’s like, this is what we want. We want you to focus on things that are gonna help you.
live a better life and have a better experience here. Things that are pertinent to you and important for you. And all the magic is great and I think it has a place and we don’t always know exactly what all of it means and I don’t know if there is meaning for all of it. And sometimes there is and if that feels important to a person we can delve into it. But I try to get them to focus on things that are going to help them in their lives and there’s not a lot of difference. It’s just less intense really.
Sam Believ (23:21)
We had one lady and she’s a hypnotherapist and she works with groups and she knows a lot about the topic and she came to the retreat. One thing I can say, I’m not gonna mention her name, but she was, I’ve never seen anyone drink that much ayahuasca in a way that she would not be able to walk and she would ask us to help carry her to the altar so she could take another cup. So her body gave in, but her mind was still.
still active and after that we had to come up with the rule that unless you can walk up and take a cup you cannot take another cup.
Rebecca Hayden (23:57)
Wow, that’s
very interesting. I think that, you know, a lot of people pursue things because they want to deal with their own issues. We all do, really, you know.
I know I did, but with hypnosis, it was more like a tool to keep going what I was already doing, you know, all the journeying and the energy healing and all of those things. But it surprises me, but everybody’s got their own journey, you know, maybe that’s something that she needed to experience for herself to learn something about herself. I know I keep learning about myself and that’s ongoing and it’s a good thing.
Sam Believ (24:38)
So I know you focus a lot on the integration side of things and after you had your ayahuasca experiences, other plant medicine experiences, how was your own integration journey and what lessons have you picked up there to share with our audience?
Rebecca Hayden (25:00)
There were so many. There were just so many and they’re ongoing. Becoming just more aware of myself was number one. And of course self-love, just, it has to be there.
But everybody’s journey to self-love is unique to who they are, what they’ve been through, where they’re at in life, all of those things. There I was with the young son and this just constant dialogue and these energies that were coming up in me, these harsh, edgy things that I knew I had to release and
I was being guided through all this, which was helpful, but it was really challenging. So I was in situations where, you know, it’s daily life and I’m, you know, putting breakfast on the table for my son and this edgy stuff is like really, you know, coming down hard on me. And I know he can feel it. And I’m like, don’t worry, honey, it’s gonna go, you know, and.
These later, and I couldn’t make sense of it at the time necessarily, but later, and now I realize that these are energies we’ve picked up for, you know, periods of, long periods of time through family, you know, through even other lives.
We have to be open to intentionally releasing them if we don’t want them to play a role in how we experiencing things here now in our daily lives. And these are strange concepts to get to used to. And I delve deeply into some of it and other stuff I was cautioned not to go into. You know, let’s just heal and focus on your everyday life. You know, the things that you want to change and everything that we feel we can’t have or we would like to have.
there’s always something inside of us that’s working against us that we have to change. And so it’s been a constant, you know, sort of road of doing those things. So my relationship with everybody around me had to change. I had to stop playing the roles that I was playing with those people. So, you know, I think most people have had
experiences with family members or friends where things weren’t as even or as healthy as they could be. And often in our society and many others, the focus is on the other person. that person’s a, you know, fill in the blank.
But with my integration path, it was all about what role am I playing? How am I participating in that? So with this particular person, for a long period of time, this message kept coming in every time I interacted or even thought about this person. The message was don’t participate, don’t participate, don’t participate over and over and over and over again until I had to face like, OK, what am I doing? What’s that participation? And I did get a sense of it because this message was so strong.
I had to just step back and go, so what was I about to do, you know, when that message came through? And then I started to just learn a lot about myself. You know, my whole integration was about learning about myself and journeying is a great way to do that because we’re no longer just think, think, thinking. We go into experiential stuff and we get nuanced feelings about these things. And with my integration path, because of this,
connection. I was doing all that all day long, I was having these feelings, you know, something would be going down and just an everyday experience. And yet my feeling about it was really
intense and deep and I knew, okay, this may seem pass off as acceptable in my life before, but now I know it’s really not good stuff and I’ve got to do something about it. But I would still have to do the work like everybody else. So, you know, what’s going on? What was my part in it? How can I change that part? Where’d that come from? Let’s go there and find out and heal it, you know.
Sam Believ (29:12)
So it seems that in your case, you get a very clear guidance as in like don’t interact with this person, don’t engage. But for someone, let’s say somebody just had their first ever ayahuasca experience and they’re having trouble going back to their normal life, like what would be the practical steps for them to integrate? Like anything specific that you would recommend to do or?
Rebecca Hayden (29:40)
Well, I mean, it really depends on the situation. know, I mean, everybody’s so unique. And the reason I love working with hypnotic journeying is because somewhere inside of that person, they do know what they need to do. You know, sometimes you learn utterly abusive situations that they have to leave, but there has to be steps even there.
And, or, or they’re in a dangerous situation, they have to get out. don’t know. This is like, hypothetical and with each person, there’s different circumstances. There might be a child involved, but this don’t participate wasn’t, you know, don’t interact with this person. was don’t participate in the way that I was. So I had a friend who was in an abusive situation and it was verbal abuse, which is not to be taken lightly.
But I counseled her in the same way, like don’t participate in the way that you do. Don’t respond to those things, you know, don’t.
involve yourself in his rants of whatever they are. And she was able to leave him because she was no longer playing a role in that abuse. She was no longer receiving it and responding. And of course that made him, you know, get very frustrated and things had to come to a head so that she could leave, so that she could see very clearly instead of participating in it.
And that’s an extreme version. There’s all kinds of all subtle experiences that we have socially with other people when we come back and some of us feel it more intensely. And then it’s just time to start to look within and start to realize what’s our part and what’s happening if we don’t like it. And stop focusing on all these other people and focus on our own.
role in what’s going on and start to change that. Discover where that’s from. That’s just the go-to thing. No matter what was happening, even when I was really getting a lot of dialogue, no matter where I wanted to go in my mind to say I couldn’t do something because that’s going on, but that’s happening, these are very real things, it would just continually bring back to me, continually. And I thought, I have to surrender to this or I’m going to go out of my mind. And so finally I did. then
I just learned a lot, you know, and people can learn a lot when they create the intention to do so, you know, and that has to be a very.
definite decision, you know, I’m going to not blame everybody else anymore. No matter how badly they may be behaving, I’m going to understand, you know, what my role is, because I can, I can change myself and just keep going in that direction. Even our intention to do that is extremely powerful. And once we work with medicines, I believe they do continue to work with us when we reach out to them in our minds and say, I’m ready. Let’s, let’s do this, you know, show me, tell me.
Let’s go.
Sam Believ (32:37)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you for that answer. At your podcast, you interview a lot of people about their ayahuasca experiences and their integration journey. Have you been able to figure out or what is your opinion on how the ayahuasca healing works? How does it happen? Is there any patterns that you’ve noticed?
Rebecca Hayden (33:06)
Yeah, I mean, that’s a big one, right? Because it’s so different for everybody. It really is. I mean, I’m sure you have experienced this where people come and they feel like, okay, nothing happened for me, you know, because they didn’t get the big, you know, visions and all the rest of it. And then they go home and sometimes, surprisingly, things do change. Or sometimes they have to discover they’re very close down or who knows what. But
I think it’s just really different for everyone. And the only explanation that I can give about how that medicine works with people without going into the science end, which is not my forte, is it connects with that part of us that is connected to everything else and shows us how we can become aware of that, be more.
in a more knowing state and in a more loving state so that all those things we want to happen outside of ourselves.
are related to that. And once we see that and agree to start changing that intentionally, it’s no different than the integrative process. I think that that’s what ayahuasca does. It just has a different language. people have visions that they don’t always understand. And things happen emotionally and bodily. And, you know, it may seem alarming from the outside or even from the inside. But ultimately, I think that this is
the purpose, even dark experiences which I’ve had and I still have at times in and out of the medicines.
In the end, if I relent and I say, okay, I’m not gonna play the role of victim here, you it doesn’t mean you don’t always get help, you can. But if you agree to say, to be curious and say, you know, what’s going on here? You know, like with the medicine, we have to agree to go into the experience. Knowing that we don’t know what it’s gonna be like, it could be really challenging, but we have to agree to do it.
So I think there is an agreement with the medicine. Some people don’t always make it successfully. That if we agree to surrender to it, to work with it and to discover these things about ourselves, that’s what this medicine can do. And so much more that we have no words to describe, you know, there are some people who are very unique and they’re meant to discover all kinds of things that, you know, seem very strange to other people. And integration can also play a role there where you come back
and you feel like an alien in a strange world, you know? And then it’s about navigating that, you know, and it can be done. I don’t know if I answered your question. It’s a big one. I don’t, I’m still trying to answer that question myself, right?
Sam Believ (35:56)
Yeah.
It is a question that I ask often to people that work with ayahuasca a lot because I would like to be able to explain it better to people as well when they ask me. And the experience that you described that, you know, for someone that arguably have not connected, but then their life has changed significantly, I actually have a podcast.
episode with one of the guests that came to Loira and he left after four ceremonies feeling that nothing happened to him just to come home and realize that Everyone else noticed that he changed and then his depression went away So he reached out to me asking me to send him a logo of Loira because he wanted to tattoo it That’s how significant it was for him. But at the time he was here. He was completely convinced that nothing happened. So
I think I was, is this.
Rebecca Hayden (36:55)
This is the same with hypnosis
too, with hypnotic journeying. And, you know, I worked with someone once who described this whole scenario that he wanted to happen in his life, but had a hard time really letting go in going into those states. then later, you know, we were friends and we were chatting and he started to talk about all these opportunities that were coming his way and changes he made in his life and didn’t relate them at all to all of those things.
that we were intentionally working on through journey. But some people, they can’t wrap their head around it. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, that it can’t work for them and with them, which is magical in and of itself.
Sam Believ (37:38)
Yeah, something
very similar along those lines is when after the ceremony we have a word circle and people are sharing and somebody says, well, I didn’t have any experience and then they go ahead and share for five minutes a very perfect ayahuasca experience. It’s just that it was not the experience they have been expecting based on the video they seen on the internet or what the highlight reel their friend told them about their ayahuasca experiences.
Rebecca Hayden (37:53)
Yeah
Sam Believ (38:08)
And that’s kind of part of the guidance, just constantly working with those expectations. Like we just had a new group arrive yesterday and today I was talking to them exactly about that and telling them, you know, do not let your intention become your expectation because that’s not how ayahuasca works. In your podcast, what are the more sort of
incredible stories or what are your favorite stories of healing that you recall and anything that comes to mind?
Rebecca Hayden (38:46)
Scott’s a difficult one.
That’s a really difficult one. The stories that I gravitated towards were the ones where people had on the spot lessons because I related to that because those were the experiences that I was having and I was trying to and you know what it’s like when you have this crazy experience and someone else says, me too. And you go, wow, that’s great. But the reason I liked it too is because
When we learn things through medicine and it’s so beautiful and deep and there’s this deep wonderful knowing in that moment of the truth of the matter and then we go back to these lives, it can be very difficult to bring ourselves back to that place.
of understanding how this is playing out in our lives, especially with really close family. And there was one story with a woman with children. I thought I can relate to this so much because that’s the most challenging relationship. And she was describing this in the moment, feeling like, wait a minute.
I got to stop right here and right now and not go into that mode that I usually go into. And she was having just this download as she was, as the behavior was just about to happen, you know, and she stopped it cold and, and responded differently. And to me, that’s, that’s the kind of magic that I’d like to see happen in this world more. And I do think that we can bring it about. So there’s a client that I had.
that started working with me and then, you know, had this spiritual connection in the journey.
And then we invited those things. So we do that intentionally in these journeys sometimes if people are open to it and say, you know, will you invite, you know, this kind of guidance, like on the spot? Yes. And so this client was in a particular professional experience where situation where normally, you know, he would have made one decision, but at that moment instantly, it was like, no, you know what? I’m going to go in this direction. And it was far more bold, far more.
fulfilling and worked out beautifully. And those are the stories that I like the most because we could really use that in this world. Otherwise it’s all theoretical. There are certainly other stories about how people come back into their lives and realize, wow, I’ve been focusing on all the wrong things. I need to be a more loving person because that…
feels better, not because everybody will think better of me or, you know, out of guilt or shame or any of those things, just because I know this is the way to be and that’s a truth that will never leave me kind of thing. And that’s a theme that you’ll hear through many, stories, right? People know, they know, you know, the obvious thing that is the elephant in the room. Suddenly they come back to the life and realize how important it is and how fundamental it is to every human being. Right.
Sam Believ (41:59)
Yeah, it’s ayahuasca is a shadow medicine. So a lot of times it reveals to us What is hidden from us and then it becomes immediately obvious. It’s very interesting but You mentioned those immediate lessons and it is interesting that With ayahuasca sometimes for me personally I set an intention for the ceremony And I get a totally different answer and then the answer for this specific intention Comes to me in a ceremony two years later
It’s almost as if Ayahuasca and its perception of time is not as linear as ours. But there are cases where the lessons are immediate. Like in my case, a few months ago I had a ceremony and Ayahuasca taught me about patience and it was very timely because I was being really impatient and really kind of forcing things and…
It was very valuable. And of course, in this case, it’s like, that’s what people expect from Ayahuasca. You know, I come with the problem and it just gives me all the answers and I can then go ahead and never have this problem again. But even then the lesson that came through and I connected to it so powerfully faded away and it’s kind of hard to connect to that state on demand. And I guess this is where integration comes through. But when you’re…
when you’re running a retreat and you’re so busy, you almost interestingly enough have to sacrifice your own integration in order for other people to have good experiences.
Rebecca Hayden (43:37)
Well, not necessarily, you know, I mean, everything is part of it too. I learned a lot about myself through working with clients too, and it never stops. But so what I would recommend is you to find out what’s the root of that impatience, you know, and discover that and go there deeply and heal that intentionally. Because, you know,
There’s a lot of the reason why we call it a medicine is because the behavior that we’ve become so accustomed to is a sickness. And when we regard it as a sickness, it’s not a bad thing because then we can wait. First of all, there’s no judgment around it. We don’t judge someone for getting a cold. And we have more compassion.
and this is the way that we can be with others. This is the way that we can be with ourselves. So early on when I had like all of this dialogue and a lot of it starting to focus on me and my behavior.
And I realized how judgmental I was about myself, you know. And in fact, there was a tremendous fear in some ways of going to certain places because of the fact that I knew then I would have to judge myself. You know, if I admitted this about myself, then I have to go through all the self-flagellation that would inevitably follow. And so…
I think there was even a learning process with this presence that was teaching me that I wasn’t ready for certain things then, you know, the introduction was important. And then the process of, okay, what are the fears that are getting in the way of this person learning about themselves? Let’s, let’s heal that first, you know? And I think that’s sometimes what we perceive as the timing issue. It has to do with, where we’re at and what we’re not ready for just yet and giving us what we are ready for and really need in the moment.
in at that time, you know, and we can’t dictate that.
Sam Believ (45:41)
Yeah, you don’t choose the lessons as we say, know, Ayahuasca gives you what you need and not what you want. You mentioned learning from others. I think that’s a really important part of the healing with Ayahuasca because if I could put a number on it, I would say here at the retreat, half of the healing comes from the medicine and the other half comes from the group and sharing and mutual support and
Rebecca Hayden (45:49)
Mm.
Sam Believ (46:10)
mirroring each other. What do you think about that about group setting versus sort of individual work with the medicine?
Rebecca Hayden (46:19)
Yeah, group dynamics are interesting because I think this is going on in our everyday life for sure. But when it’s in a group and when there’s medicine involved and whether you’re in that journey with the medicine or in between days, it’s still working. It’s magic. And things play out, you know.
in and amongst the people who are there to heal together. Even that intention is a really powerful thing. People come together to heal. And sometimes, I’m sure you’ve experienced this, where people will be triggered and even arguments and all kinds of strange things and strong emotions coming up. And people are provoking these things within one another so that they rise to the surface so that we can become aware of it and heal or not.
You know, people, we all have free will and people can decide, you know, no, I’m not ready to do that just yet. And that’s fine too, and to be respected. But it gives us that opportunity and in groups that can be very profound. There can also be tremendous challenges with people coming in that have a lot of dark stuff going on. But
I do believe, and this is coming from a person who’s been, you know, psychically attacked in ceremony that, you know,
I’ll list, there’s something going on there. It’s not random. You know, there’s a reason we end up in these situations that we do and finding that out. That’s the empowering part of it. You know, okay, so why did I invite that experience, you know, into my life? You know, what led to that? How can I change that and invite new, better experiences? You know, what does that teaching me? What is it helping me with? You know, these are the things you can also question when you go into any kind of journey.
or even create that intention in your life, you know?
Sam Believ (48:17)
Yeah, people provoking each other, sort of triggering each other and what I like to say is like the healing is not always pretty, it’s not always gonna be this beautiful experience. A lot of healing will come from the frustration that arises or if you felt, if you’re oppressed in emotion, you need to feel it first for it to finally leave you. So, and a lot of time the group does that together, but there seems to be an understanding that healing is happening and there is no…
no hard feelings afterwards.
Rebecca Hayden (48:51)
I have a story around that too. That just came to me if you’re okay with me sharing it.
So in ceremony, I’m sure you’ve been through all kinds of experiences and I’m gonna describe one that was very interesting. And it describes group dynamics too and group dynamics can play out in milder ways. But in the medicine, this one guy was obviously taken over by something.
And we had a really gifted shaman that was totally aware of what was going on. Let that person go through their experience. And he wasn’t really harming people at all. But he was going back and forth between this demonic presence that was, to me, it sounded funny, actually. It didn’t sound threatening or anything. But you knew it was dark.
And then there was this baby voice that he was going through at times too. And the whole time he’s deep in his medicine and experiencing whatever it is he’s experiencing. And any time the shaman felt he was in any way, he would do his thing. The shaman would send a message over and he was just, he was very, very talented. I felt so safe and I knew, he knew what he was doing. So.
Other people can get distracted when that happens, right? They’re trying to go into their own journey and their, noise is going on. And so the guidance that I received was let’s use this, you know, let’s have fun with it. So I was releasing a lot of things and I was doing so with the sounds this guy was making. And I was using those sounds to release this stuff from me. And it became like this video game and there was a vivid sort of imagery associated with it, but it was also agreement on my part.
to not freak out and to say, okay, how can I use this? Let’s go with this. And it became fun and funny and it was fun. And other people were just having this like, my God, I’m trying to heal here and da da. And that is their own journey too. If they allowed themselves to go in, they would probably find out things about themselves that made their experience more difficult as well.
And it doesn’t mean this guy wasn’t doing the things he was and that it couldn’t be potentially annoying. It’s just, so what do we do about that? This is what this voice constantly says all the time. What are you going to do about that? And gets me out of this wham, wham, wham mode and into, okay, let’s take action. And if I can’t, then let’s explore why and let’s do something with it, something useful and helpful.
Anyway, I felt that was a very interesting experience. The next day, the guy who went through all this stuff was talking about how much he learned, you know, and the judgments he had about people with dark behavior and how he didn’t have them anymore. And it was very interesting, very interesting stuff.
Sam Believ (51:55)
Yeah, it’s sort of like being a victim or adopting a creator mentality and just being like, can I do with this situation or what can I learn from it? It’s very valuable. So Rebecca, you work with documentaries before and I want to ask you for advice. This year, we’re going to be filming a documentary about ayahuasca. What do you think?
Rebecca Hayden (52:09)
Mm-hmm.
Sam Believ (52:25)
world needs to know about it. If let’s say if there was to be a documentary on Netflix about ayahuasca specifically, what what should it include?
Rebecca Hayden (52:40)
Well, to be honest, I think what we need to learn about is us, not the medicine. You know, what the impact the medicine has on us. I think that sometimes we can fall into the same trap that has happened with religions all over the world, where it becomes all about the God.
and not about who we are as people and what we’re doing here. And the same can be true of medicines. And I can see why that happens. It’s a pretty miraculous thing. And you are in awe. And that happens a lot. But I think when it comes right down to it, the medicines really do want us to just become better people and have better lives. And that’s the message that’s going to truly impact people. That’s really going to help them.
When we talk about others and what they’re doing or not doing or even the miraculousness of the medicine is a very inspiring thing. But how it can change people is far more inspiring. You know, the real stories of people’s lives, there’s a reason the Bible used stories. It’s a very powerful tool because we can relate to it. We can understand. And when we start seeing how people
you know, came into this situation one way and walked away with a very different set of ideas about what they wanted out of life and how they were going to achieve that and what they wanted for themselves and who they wanted to be. That’s the most profound story. Another thing is, especially when we work with cameras, people are at their most vulnerable.
and what they agree to when they’re going into an experience and right afterwards, and they’re in this really elevated state and then a month, a year down the road. It’s a whole different story. And I mean, it may be true of people who are not in those states, but even more so. So be very careful about that and know that.
Even though we’re trying what we’re trying to do what what I think we would all want to do for those of us who’ve ever tried wanted to convey the magic of this medicine to other people is to take an experience that happens inside of you and and share that with another person and it can’t be done the only way it can be done is through words and images that fall you know terribly short of of what the truth of of this experience can be but we are that truth and when we see people
change so dramatically. You know, we have this discussion a lot on the podcast or we have in the past where
people come out of these experiences with what my friend termed like evangelistic fervor. Everybody’s got to do this medicine and I understand it. really do. But I don’t think that’s the way to go about it. They settle down eventually, you know, and they realize, wow, OK, I don’t know if that’s true, first of all, because it’s not for everybody. It’s wonderful. And I hope and I know a lot of people will pursue it. But
The rules that apply, the way that we’ve been going about things has to change. So in this, the same thing is true. People don’t change because you come out and say, everybody’s got to do this. People want to do the medicine because they see someone changed. And they know and experience the truth of that.
and then they know within themselves they need to change. That’s what makes people want to do medicine, not people raving about it. People actually change and then experience it. Yeah, yeah, and it’s understandable, it really is. Like I totally get it, but you know.
Sam Believ (56:18)
Yeah, I call it, I call it ayahuasca zealot stage.
Yeah,
so lead by example, don’t force people. Once they see how you change your life, then they will change as well. This is very valuable feedback. So make a documentary more about people and less about the ayahuasca. Rebecca, so we’re coming closer to the end of the show. Any parting words, any recommendations to people, and most importantly, work and define more about you.
Rebecca Hayden (56:57)
Well, my website is Rebecca Hayden.com and my podcast is ayahuasca talks dot love. And yeah, you can find out more about working with me there. You can reach me at reach dot Rebecca at me.com. I’m on LinkedIn.
I’m not as active on any other social media really. But once you go on my website, you can find me easily. yeah, just, you know, when it comes to ayahuasca, it’s like a relationship. And I think the best way we can approach it, any relationship is with openness, trust and love. And, you know, the same thing is true of our experience in the universe itself that
or having this relationship with the outer world. And I think the same rules apply pretty much.
Sam Believ (57:56)
Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you for sharing your story and your knowledge with us. Guys, you’ve been listening to Alaska podcast and I will see you in the next episode.
Rebecca Hayden (58:09)
Thank you so much.